3 weeks ago
The pursuing is simply a transcript of an question and reply pinch David Sanger, New York Times analogous and writer of "New Cold Wars," that aired connected April 21, 2024.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're joined now by New York Times White House and nationalist information correspondent, David Sanger. His latest book, "New Cold Wars," is retired now. David, bully to spot you again.
DAVID SANGER: Great to beryllium pinch you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Where do we begin? The world genuinely is connected fire. And 1 of nan things I for illustration astir your book is, you write, going each nan measurement backmost to listening to nan Nixon-Kennedy debates, and proceeding those candidates hash retired America's domiciled successful nan world and geostrategy. In this election, we don't moreover cognize if nan candidates will person a debate, meantime nan world's connected fire. How do nan American- members of nan American nationalist request to deliberation astir nan world title nan United States is successful nan mediate of?
DAVID SANGER: Well, it's a very different title than what we had successful nan Cold War. You know, those Nixon-Kennedy debates, were, you know, astatine nan tallness of nan infinitesimal of a US title against nan Soviet Union, which was terrifying and nuclear. But location was a simplicity astir it, you know, location was a predictability astir it. We understood who controlled their atomic weapons, they understood who controlled ours, we knew who to call. The caller acold wars are rather different, Margaret. We've sewage Russia and China coming together successful a periodic partnership. I wouldn't opportunity it's a afloat alliance. We person different players for illustration Iran and North Korea, arsenic you were discussing pinch earlier guests, supplying them, becoming benignant of what nan Iranians telephone an "Axis of Resistance" to nan US. It is simply a acold much volatile, I think, acold much vulnerable play than we had, moreover then. And yet, arsenic you constituent out, our expertise to talk it arsenic a federation has somewhat degraded. You watch those Kennedy-Nixon debates and put speech who was sweating and who looked young--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --Right.
DAVID SANGER: And vigorous and each that. It was an incredibly blase statement mostly astir atomic deterrence. I'm acrophobic that we're not having that incredibly blase statement today, you know, 60 years- much than 60 years later. But nan ballot yesterday, which you've been discussing astir Ukraine, astatine nan extremity of nan day, turned retired to beryllium a reasonably overwhelming ballot successful favour of nan US pushing against nan Russians successful Ukraine and possibly beyond.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Certainly, overwhelmingly yes for Democrats. A spot divided for Republicans--
DAVID SANGER: --A mostly of Republicans voted- voted against but it passed, it passed--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --It passed--
DAVID SANGER: --Comfortably.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It did. And I- it's just- I deliberation it's specified an absorbing constituent you make, though, successful benignant of changing really we deliberation astir title pinch Russia and China. We learned Friday that nan US is apt to suffer a important counterterrorism guidelines successful nan African state of Niger, because nan authorities demanded troops withdraw. I deliberation a batch of Americans didn't moreover cognize that location were a 1000 US troops location fighting aliases moving successful nan counterterrorism space. Russia is moving in.
DAVID SANGER: That's right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: China is getting and carving retired a ample magnitude of power successful Africa. What are nan fronts successful nan caller acold war?
DAVID SANGER: Well, location are a mates of different ones. You pointed retired 1 successful Africa, besides an area that China has been wiring up pinch Huawei instrumentality and truthful forth. So we are concerned, you know, rightly truthful that nan US successful not having a competitor consecutive connected to put successful 5G instrumentality whitethorn beryllium losing nan opportunity to thief hindrance nan continent together. In nan book, I- I return you to nan Solomon Islands, a spot nan US fought for successful World War II, and scored a large victory, but now has fundamentally moved complete into China's camp. There is still immoderate title underway. But to reply your mobility much broadly, if you judge that location is thing of a caller robust curtain coming down, a spot wherever you're going to disagreement nan US, nan NATO nations against China, Russia, Iran, others, it's location successful that borderland betwixt Ukraine and Russia. And that's why the- nan measure that went done Congress was truthful important. I don't cognize if it's capable to move nan tide. The Ukrainians whitethorn person mislaid truthful overmuch clip and ammunition present that it whitethorn beryllium excessively late. But surely had it not passed, that was beautiful much, by nan judgement of nan CIA Director Bill Burns and others, going to beryllium nan extremity of nan contest. So Russians almost surely would person surged forward.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And China has make- made clear they person a liking successful Russia, winning successful Ukraine. It is--
DAVID SANGER: That's right--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --Its competition.
DAVID SANGER: And if we had those debates, again, arsenic you say, who knows if we will. I deliberation nan astir interesting--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --Or moreover those interviews--
DAVID SANGER: --Or even- that's right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Substantial interviews pinch conversations astir nationalist information interests of America, I mean--
DAVID SANGER: --That's right, and- and--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --We should.
DAVID SANGER: And, you know, President Biden has been reluctant to have, you know, awesome beryllium down interviews, astatine slightest pinch nan people organizations. But I deliberation if we did person those interviews, I deliberation 1 of nan large questions is, what is your scheme to get successful nan midst of nan Russia-China combination.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
DAVID SANGER: Because nan halfway of what Nixon and Kissinger were doing successful nan early 70s, successful recognizing China was to forestall Russia and China from coming together.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You besides make this absorbing constituent astir nan move that's truthful different given, first of all, they're truthful economically intertwined nan United States and China, but besides nan business organization and exertion and nan domiciled it plays successful this type of competition. A apical US cyber charismatic told you, companies, not nan US government, person each nan penetration these days. How do we cognize erstwhile an onslaught is coming?
DAVID SANGER: Yeah, nan book opens pinch nan days moving up to nan warfare successful Ukraine. And while location were surely tons of indicators coming from American satellites, and signals intelligence, and truthful forth. In nan end, 1 of nan cardinal indicators of nan Russians were getting fresh to rotation came from Microsoft, whose engineers were noticing that malware that had been placed by nan Russians connected Ukrainian authorities agencies were being activated and sent a announcement to their- their channels, which yet went to nan White House. At nan extremity of nan day, what kept Ukraine moving was immoderate operation of Microsoft, Amazon moving each of their information to nan unreality and past Elon Musk coming successful and providing Starlink truthful they could pass to that cloud.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Incredible.
DAVID SANGER: Something we ne'er saw successful nan aged acold wars.
MARGARET BRENNAN: David, it's a fascinating read. It's bully to spot you successful person, and we'll person to time off it there.
DAVID SANGER: Thank you.
